Building Self-Confidence

How a snowboarding accident helped one woman believe in herself

 
Snowboarding would be a fake-it-till-you-make-it kind of challenge: If I could act confident long enough to get me down the mountain, then I would develop actual confidence.
— Maya Kroth
 

Maya Kroth’s goal for the New Year was to bolster her self-confidence, and she decided to start by taking herself snowboarding. But things did not go according to plan.

In this episode, Maya shares her story, exploring how you can get your mojo back, even when things go very wrong.

  • Welcome to Out There Podcast. Our stories are written for the ear, so for those able, we recommend listening while reading along. Transcripts may contain minor errors; please check the audio before quoting.

    VOICEOVER: Hub and Spoke audio collective.

    WILLOW BELDEN: Happy New Year, everyone! I’m Willow Belden, and you’re listening to Out There, the podcast that explores big questions through intimate stories outdoors.

    So, I have a favor to ask. I’m putting together our next season. And we have some really wonderful stories in the works. But creating those stories is expensive. We spend months crafting each narrative, and producers need to get paid. We also have costs for music, editing software, audio hosting, and a lot of other things.

    If Out There brightens your day at all, please consider joining me in investing in our next season. Your dollars will go straight to work funding stories. There are several easy ways you can contribute. Just go to outtherepodcast.com/support or click the link in the episode description.

    And now, on to our story for today.

    The New Year is all about new beginnings. It’s a time for starting fresh and putting failures behind you. It’s a chance to become the person you want to be.

    But of course, New Year’s resolutions don’t always pan out. So what then? What do you do, when you have a really important life goal for the New Year, but things go horribly awry?

    In this episode, Maya Kroth takes us snowboarding near Lake Tahoe, and tells a story about trying to gain confidence.

    MAYA KROTH: There’s a saying that how you spend New Year’s is how you’re going to spend the rest of the year.

    I didn’t expect to spend New Year’s Day 2022 in the emergency room of a remote rural hospital. By myself. Without health insurance. Waiting for the doctor to tell me just how bad the news was.

    I was alone. Broke. And broken. This didn’t bode well for the rest of my year.

    I’m not really the type for New Year’s resolutions. I make a few, the same ones everybody does: drink more water, get those 10,000 steps. But what I like better is to pick a New Year's word—a mantra or a theme, some idea to define the year ahead. And in 2022, it needed to be a good one.

    2021 had been rough. When I played back the tape from the movie of my life that year, the word “failure” seemed burned into every frame. There was that thing with that guy that didn’t work out. That podcast series I couldn't sell. There was that trendy weight-loss plan that majorly backfired. By the time I arrived at my parents’ house for the holidays in December, my self-esteem was at an all-time low.

    One night at dinner, we sat around the dining room table to discuss our hopes and dreams for the new year. I should say, my dad and I discussed. We are the talkers of the family. The over-analyzers, over-thinkers. My mom is like a Zen monk, listening twice as much as she speaks. And she hates these kinds of conversations. She prefers to live “in the moment.” Thinking about the future too much makes her nervous, I think. Like we’re going to jinx it or something.

    I told them about the goals I had for the New Year: jobs I wanted to pursue, relationships I hoped to nurture. But I kept holding myself back. Hesitating. I just wasn’t sure I was good enough to get the things I wanted.

    What I needed in 2022 was some swagger. Some mojo. So I decided that my word for the year would be “self-confidence.”

    After dinner, I went back to my old room and started getting ready for bed. I reached into the closet to hang up a blouse and spotted my dusty old snowboard bag shoved in the back corner. Man, that thing brought back memories.

    I remembered the first time I really got the hang of it. I was 20 years old, on vacation in Lake Tahoe with my first boyfriend, Mike. We’d drive up to the Sierras almost every weekend back then. Mike coached me from the sidelines: “Keep your knees bent! Sit back into your heels!” I remember how excited we both were when I learned how to link turns and could finally keep up with him on the intermediate runs.

    God, that felt good. If I could bottle THAT feeling…

    It was all there in the bag: board, boots, bindings. Almost taunting me. Even my old bib and jacket were in there. And they still fit. Kinda.

    I hadn’t laced up my boots in a while, but I wondered if getting back on that board would be the key to juicing my self-confidence.

    There was just one problem: I was scared of falling. And fear is your worst enemy on the slopes. In snowboarding, you’re supposed to keep your weight on your front foot almost all the time. It helps you stay in control of the board. But it also makes you go down the mountain faster. And speed terrified me. The faster the velocity, the greater the chance of breaking something.

    But the alternative was worse: If I wavered at all, shifted my weight to the back, even for a moment, I was a goner. It’s a mental game as much as a physical one. I had to stay confident, even in the face of fear. Not unlike my life at the moment.

    In my vision, snowboarding would be a fake-it-till-you-make-it kind of challenge: If I could just act confident long enough to get me down the mountain, then I would develop actual confidence from having done the scary thing. It’d be a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop: Believe you can do the thing, successfully do the thing, rinse, repeat.

    So I bought a lift ticket online, and the next morning I packed my old board into the car and headed for the hills.

    January 1, 2022, was a beautiful bluebird day. Fresh powder from a Christmas Week blizzard blanketed the Sierras. There were still a handful of spots left in the parking lot at Donner Ski Ranch when I pulled in just after 9 a.m. Standing next to my rented SUV in the thin winter sunlight, I wasn’t even shivering as I snapped into my bib. Helmet, check. Goggles, check. Power bar, check. It was all coming back now, these familiar rituals from another lifetime.

    In the past, there was always someone there with me, a shoulder to lean on while I shoved my feet into those bulky old boots. Snowboarding isn’t something I had ever done by myself. But by now most of my friends were busy with kids and spouses and anyway, I had resolved that this was a solo mission. My self-confidence was broken and I alone could fix it.

    I grabbed my board and tottered toward the lodge to meet Daveed, my instructor for the morning. Daveed was a lanky 19 year old with an accent. A mop of shaggy dark fringe peeked out from under his beanie, covering the left half of his snow goggles. As we rode the lift to the top of the bunny hill, he explained he was from Chile, just working in Tahoe for the season.

    At the top of the slope, we strapped into our boards and Daveed motioned for me to head down ahead of him. He’d watch me first: check out my form and then teach me what I needed to improve.

    I took off down the gentle grade for the first time in a decade, wobbly but OK. I whispered to myself, “You got this.” Weight on the front foot. Heel turn. Toe turn.

    I got all the way to the bottom and didn’t have to stop once. This mission was off to a good start!

    Daveed led me to another chair lift that went up a different, harder slope. He turned to me and asked: “So what is it you want to learn? Your form looks good.”

    I told him self-confidence was my motto for the year. That I wanted to believe in myself more.

    We did that run, then another. On our fourth trip up the chair he told me, “You don’t need me. Your body already knows exactly what to do. Trust it.”

    He was right, and I could feel it. That next run, I was soaring.

    It went on like that for a few hours. When the lesson was over, I gave Daveed a grateful hug and went up the lift for what I decided would be my last run of the day.

    The mountain was quiet. I’d missed that silence: the way snow muffles all the extra sound, leaving only the rusty squeak of the old chair lift. It carried me up, higher and higher, until the lake came into view in the distance. There was no boyfriend next to me this time, but who needed one? I was getting back in touch with something elemental about myself, my essence. Getting back to ME.

    The lift reached the top and I got ready to unload. I angled my body sideways off the chair and placed my board down on the snow, facing forward, weight on my front foot. I stood up and put my back foot on the stomp pad, just like I had a hundred times before, and got ready to glide to a graceful stop in front of a snowbank at the top of the run. But just as I pushed off the chair to start my glide: I caught an edge.

    My board and I went end-over-end in a slow-motion tumble. My right foot, not yet strapped into the rear binding, got twisted into an unholy shape. I heard a snap, like a dried twig, beneath my skin.

    I lay there in the snow, not knowing what to do. I didn’t dare try to stand up. I was only 15 feet from the top of the chair, but the teenage lift operator hadn’t noticed that my little fall was way more serious than it looked. People just kept skiing past me, off the lift and down the mountain, one after another.

    Finally, one skier realized I needed help. She flagged down ski patrol, who strapped me into a little red emergency sled and skied me down the mountain.

    The next few hours are a blur. I remember someone pulling off my right boot and duct-taping a cardboard box to my ankle, a makeshift splint. I remember driving myself an hour to the nearest hospital because I was scared of how much the ambulance would cost. I remember being X-rayed, and waiting forever to hear the results.

    An hour turned into four, turned into six.

    It gave me a lot of time to think. Or more accurately, to freak out. Is it broken? How bad? I’d never broken anything before. How much was this going to cost? And if it had to be broken, why couldn’t it at least have happened in a more heroic way? Catching air during an epic jump or something? Instead, I was just a middle-aged lady with no friends who face-planted in front of a teenage lift operator at one mile an hour.

    It was all so humiliating. I’d come to the snow to bolster my self-confidence, and I’d wound up doing exactly the opposite. By the time the nurse came out to tell me my ankle was broken and I’d need surgery, I’d already mentally tossed my New Year’s motto in the trash. Confidence seemed more out of reach than ever.

    The rural ER didn't have a surgeon on hand to repair my shattered bone, so they just handed me a bunch of paperwork and discharged me. My 80-year-old parents had to drive three hours on icy roads to pick me up and bring me home again.

    It took a while to get the full picture of what lay ahead: Surgery to weld my bone back together with pins and plates, then a month in a cast, then another month in a walking boot, then months of PT. No flying home to Atlanta, no driving a car till spring. I’d be lucky to get 10,000 steps all winter.

    In the meantime, I was at the mercy of mom and dad if I wanted to go anywhere, do anything, even just make a cup of coffee. (Have you ever tried to make pour-over on crutches? It’s a nightmare.)

    In the weeks after the surgery, I watched my Fitbit with dismay. My step average went down, down, down. The muscles on my bad leg shrank down to strings. It was the winter of my discontent.

    On one level, I knew how lucky I was. My ankle would heal in a few months, and I’d go back to my able-bodied lifestyle in no time. But still, I hated this new reality. I struggled to accept how helpless I’d become overnight. This was the opposite of the self-reliance I was supposed to be manifesting. And watching my mom race around the kitchen preparing my meals was making me feel so guilty. Wasn’t I supposed to be the one caring for them at this age?

    I became obsessed with snatching back scraps of my independence in any way I could.

    INFOMERCIAL: Are crutches or knee scooters slowing you down?

    MAYA: As I stayed up late one night, doom-scrolling, I came across an ad for a hands-free crutch.

    INFOMERCIAL: It’s a new era. Walk, climb, carry, get your life back.

    MAYAA: The infomercial showed all these smiling injured people walking up stairs, washing their cars, playing with their kids, without depending on anyone for help.

    INFOMERCIAL: iWalk 3: live your life.

    MAYA: It was the quickest 200 bucks I’ve ever spent. I was so excited when it arrived in the mail the next day. Imagine a high-tech peg leg, with a little padded shelf at the knee where I could rest my cast. It came with what seemed like hundreds of velcro straps and snaps. It was complicated as hell to set up, but it got me back in control of my coffee situation, and that felt like a win.

    But even clawing back some independence didn’t lift my gloom. Friends called to check in. They texted me jokes and baby animal memes. Nothing would cheer me up. Having to rely on others was grating on me. I wanted to get back to manifesting the confident, independent self I was meant to be.

    My folks and I fell into a routine. Each evening my dad would cook dinner, my mom would make tea, and I’d hobble into the den on my bionic leg, in a cranky mood.

    After dinner on one particularly emotional day, my mom went to fetch the pot of chamomile, like always, along with a tray of little tea cakes. As she poured the tea, she repeated a story she likes to tell sometimes. It’s about a dream she had when she was pregnant for the first time, with my sister, and anxious about becoming a parent.

    She dreamed she was floating in a river. The current picked up, and she felt frightened. She knew she had no control over where she was going. But then her fear started to dissipate, and she felt calm. She understood she was being supported by this river, buoyed up by this force that was bigger than she was. Powerful but benevolent.

    “What is that, you think?” I asked her, dipping a cookie into my mug. “What is the river a metaphor for?”

    My mom, predictably, felt the parable didn’t need analysis. My dad, the ex-Catholic, suggested the river might be God. We decided each of us might have our own definition for the river. Maybe it’s God, or friends, or nature. Something to which we can give up control. Jesus take the wheel and all that.

    Slowly, I began to surrender. I let myself be cared for. I started to understand that my recovery depended on accepting help from other people. It was ok to rely on encouraging texts from friends, a cup of tea from my mother’s hands, a kind stranger on the ski slope. All of these people who were there for me: they were my river.

    The days stretched out like that. Dinner, TV, tea. We talked about dreams. We watched Succession. I let my bones heal. When the cast came off and the doctor cleared me to drive, it was time to go home. To get back to taking care of myself.

    And now here I am, heading into another new year. I still haven’t gotten back on the snowboard. But strangely, the whole experience did wind up making me more confident. It’s just a different vision of confidence than the one I started with.

    I had thought snowboarding would help me feel stronger, hotter, to become the badass I wished I could be. I pictured myself flying down the mountain — and through life — strong, swift, agile, self reliant. And instead, I fell flat on my face. Literally.

    Now I understand that confidence doesn't only come from being the best athlete or the most successful podcaster or the most independent person in the world. Sometimes it can grow through vulnerability, and reliance on others. It’s not that I’m confident that I alone can manifest my best life. Now I’m finding confidence in the idea that when life doesn't go as planned, my river will keep me afloat.

    WILLOW: That was Maya Kroth. She’s an audio producer based in Atlanta. You can see more of her work at mayakroth.com.

    Our next season is set to launch this spring. And as I mentioned earlier, we are raising money to fund that season. If you feel inspired to help out, just click the link in the episode description, or go to outttherepodcast.com/support.

    If you’d like to stay in the loop about our upcoming season, you can also subscribe to our email newsletter. I’ll be sending out occasional updates there. Again, just click the link in the episode description to sign up.

    Out There is a proud member of Hub & Spoke, a collective of idea-driven independent podcasts. You can check out all the other shows at hubspokeaudio.org.

    Today’s story was written and narrated by Maya Kroth. Story editing and sound design by me, Willow Belden. Out There’s audience growth director is Sheeba Joseph. Our interns are Katie Reuther and Maria Ordovas-Montanes. Our ambassadors are Tiffany Duong, Ashley White, and Stacia Bennet. And our theme music was written by Jared Arnold.

    Special thanks to all our listeners who are supporting Out There with financial contributions, including Bryan Stokes, David Dolton, Mike Bachman, Caitlyn Bagley, Josh Weingarten, Jodee Pring, Carrie Gulvin, Eric Biederman, Phil Timm, Doug Frick, Tara Joslin, Sue and Gary Peters, Deb and Vince Garcia, and the family of Mike Ludders. Thank you so much. This podcast exists because of you.

    Happy New Year, and we’ll see you in the spring. In the meantime, have a beautiful day, be bold, go outside, and find your dreams.

 

Credits

Story by Maya Kroth

Story editing and sound design by Willow Belden

Music includes works from Blue Dot Sessions

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Closing the Gender Gap

Being told you belong is important — but is it enough?

Learning new skills at the Rowdy Gowdy women’s mountain bike camp | PHoto by Cameron Way

 
If you think about sports writ large, it’s been for men, designed for men, this arena in which men can display their masculinity. ... And so women have — forever — not always been welcome in that sphere.
— Christine Yu
 

Women are often told we can do anything we want in life: ride bikes, scale cliffs, surf waves. But in some areas of outdoor recreation, the gender gap remains shockingly large.

In this episode, we visit a women’s mountain bike camp in Wyoming and explore what’s really needed to get people of all genders on equal footing.

  • Welcome to Out There Podcast. Our stories are written for the ear, so for those able, we recommend listening while reading along. Transcripts may contain minor errors; please check the audio before quoting.

    VOICEOVER: Hub and Spoke audio collective.

    WILLOW BELDEN: Hi, I’m Willow Belden, and you’re listening to Out There, the podcast that explores big questions through intimate stories outdoors.

    Before we get started today, I have a favor to ask. I’m in the midst of planning our next season. And I’m really excited about the stories we’re going to be producing. But creating those stories is expensive. We spend months — literally months — crafting each narrative, and producers need to get paid. We also have costs for music, audio hosting, and much more.

    My goal is to raise $9,500 by the end of this year to help cover those costs.

    If Out There brightens your day at all, please consider joining me in investing in our next season. There are several easy ways you can contribute. Just go to outtherepodcast.com/support — or click the link in the episode description — to get in on the fun. Again, that’s outtherepodcast.com/support.

    And now, on to our story for today.

    Growing up, I was taught that I could do anything I wanted in life.

    I had a mother who was fiercely independent. She had built an impressive career for herself. She had traveled the world. She knew how to use power tools and hike mountains and go camping. And she instilled in me this idea that I was capable of anything.

    My mom was definitely ahead of her time. But even so, I think a lot of women in my generation received similar messaging. We grew up in an era when traditional gender norms were being questioned. Finally, girls were allowed to have ambition. We were told it was ok to follow our passions. To build careers. To ride bikes, and paddle rivers, and sleep in the wilderness. And that was a gift. That kind of messaging is so important.

    But is it ENOUGH? Being told you can do whatever you want — is that sufficient to get you where you want to be?

    In this episode, we’re going to visit a women’s mountain bike clinic. And we’re going to explore why there’s still such a big gender gap in certain areas of outdoor recreation — and what’s really needed to get women on equal footing.

    JENN HESS: Alright, I want to get rolling, since, you know, today we might have a bit of rain issues. So I’m Jenn. I’m the director of the Rowdy Gowdy, co-founder — or actually the founder, not the co. I’m the founder. [laughs] So this is our sixth Rowdy Gowdy. We started in 2017…

    WILLOW: It’s a chilly morning, and several dozen women are gathered at a state park in Wyoming. They’re decked out in colorful bike clothing. And the excitement in the air is palpable.

    JENN: Alright, so what I’d like to do is introduce the coaches. So coaches, can you go over by the green box? Alright, we’ll start with Leslie! [Cheering] She was first a camp participant, and now she’s a coach.

    WILLOW: As each coach is introduced, they do a little dance. And the group erupts in laughter. Playfulness is clearly a priority here.

    JENN: Next we’ve got Sarah. She’s pretty a big deal. I don’t know if you know about her, but she went to the Olympics. [laughter]

    WILLOW: This event is a mountain bike clinic for women. It’s called Rowdy Gowdy — Curt Gowdy being the name of the park where it’s held. And it’s basically like summer camp for grownups. It’s two full days of coaching and riding and building skills on bikes in the company of other women.

    The participants are an eclectic group. There are old women and young women, novices, and folks who have been riding for years. But regardless of their background, almost all of them are here for the same reason. They want to gain one thing in particular…

    CAMP PARTICIPANT 1: Confidence.

    CAMP PARTICIPANT 2: More confidence.

    CAMP PARTICIPANT 3: I just need to build my confidence, I think, and learn to trust my bike.

    CAMP PARTICIPANT 4: Just to be more confident.

    CAMP PARTICIPANT 5: You know, I want to get over the panic.

    WILLOW: So, I’ve actually participated in the Rowdy Gowdy bike camp before, back in 2017. And confidence was something I had been struggling with too. A lot.

    I had been mountain biking for several years at that point. And I should have been decent at it. I mean, I was generally an active, outdoorsy person. I was in good shape. I had a lot of stamina.

    But mountain biking scared me. It’s a sport that involves big rocks and tight corners and steep descents. And I didn’t know how to navigate that stuff. Nobody had ever taught me. So when I got to a gnarly section of trail, I usually chickened out. I’d just get off my bike and walk. And the more I did that — the more I backed down from obstacles — the more I doubted myself.

    Now — in hindsight — I know I wasn’t alone. It’s actually really common for women to lack skills and confidence when it comes to adventure sports. Which is why clinics like this one have sprung up all over the country.

    JENN: Hi, I am Jenn Hess.

    WILLOW: Jenn runs the Rowdy Gowdy camp. And she’s one of the most talented mountain bikers I know. She’s the kind of person who jumps off rocks with her bike, and tears down steep descents. And she does it all with this giant grin on her face.

    But it wasn’t always that way. Her start with biking was actually pretty rough.

    JENN: So, this is going to go way back. I was eleven, and I wanted to be like my brother. He got a paper route, and he got enough money he bought a used little GT BMX bike, and he rode his paper route on that bike. And I thought that was the coolest thing.

    And so, at eleven, I decided to do the same thing. So I bought a pink Schwinn, a used one. And I rode around with my brother. That’s all we did was ride our BMX bikes. And I started to get pretty good at it.

    And then my brother decided to do a couple races, and I decided to go with him, ‘cause he was my buddy. And I was the only girl at this race. It was outside of Minneapolis, Minnesota — like ‘91, ‘92. And I was the only girl, and I was very shy at the time. And boys made fun of me ‘cause I had a pink bike. I was the only girl. And I got so like frightened that I just went home. I didn’t even ride, didn’t do the race, didn’t do anything. And from then on, I walked away from bikes.

    WILLOW: Jenn didn’t start riding again until she was in grad school. By that point, she had moved out to Wyoming, and there were a lot of trails in the area, and she had this friend who was into mountain biking. So she started riding with him.

    JENN: I learned by trial and error. It was basically trial by fire, and I crashed a lot, and I just wanted to keep up.

    WILLOW: This friend did not go easy on her. But even so, she loved it.

    JENN: The best thing about it was that you got away from work and all the stress in your life. And you had to be present on what you were doing. Like you couldn’t think about like, ‘Oh, I gotta do this analysis and it’s not working.’ You know, feels like you’re a kid again, ‘cause you don’t have all the stresses that adults have, you know? [laughs]

    WILLOW: Over the years, Jenn got more and more into mountain biking. And she got really good at it.

    But there was something that bothered her. She was often the only woman — at least on the advanced trails.

    This wasn’t exactly surprising. Mountain biking has always been a male-dominated sport. Like, really male-dominated. By some estimates, almost 84 percent of mountain bikers identify as men.

    But still — Jenn was miffed that there weren’t more ladies out there. And so, she starting thinking. For some time already, she’d been helping out with mountain bike camps for kids…

    JENN: And kept having the parents ask us, “When are you going to put on an adult camp?” And we would kind of just laugh about it, “Haha,” like “Yeah, that’s right, an adult camp.” And we’d just kind of focus on the kids.

    WILLOW: But then she became an ambassador for a bike clothing brand. And they gave her some money to host an event.

    JENN: And so I was sitting at lunch with my partner, and I was like, “Man, an event — what could we put on?” And then it dawned on me: “Of course, a women’s clinic!” You know, one, I want women to ride the hard stuff. But I also want some friends to ride with me that are women. ‘Cause I was only riding with guys. And I’m like, “I would really like to ride with some ladies. If they come to the clinic, maybe they’ll want to ride the advanced trails with me.” So…

    WILLOW: So, pause. If your goal is to get more women into mountain biking, and help them advance in the sport, a skills clinic makes total sense.

    But why is that women – specifically – need clinics like this? Why do we lack technical skills in the first place? And what’s kept us out of this sport for so long?

    To answer that question, we have to zoom out.

    CHRISTINE YU: If you just think about sports writ large, you know, it’s been for men, designed for men, this arena in which men can display their masculinity and can develop leadership skills and all these characteristics that we kind of associate with men. And so women have — forever — not always been welcome in that sphere.

    WILLOW: That’s Christine Yu. She’s the author of a book called Up to Speed: The Groundbreaking Science of Women Athletes. And she says there HAS been progress. Many more women and girls are participating in sport these days.

    CHRISTINE YU: But there definitely are certain sports where that gender gap and disparity is more pronounced. And it seems to be concentrated in kind of like those action and adventure sports — so, things like mountain biking and surfing and the like, right?

    WILLOW: So what’s up with that? Why is the gender gap so pronounced in adventure sports?

    Kate Evans is a professor at the University of Wisconsin LaCrosse, and she studies women in outdoor recreation. She says there are several things that come into play. But a lot of it boils down to what we learned — or didn’t learn — as kids.

    KATE EVANS: When girls are really little, they’re told girls aren’t supposed to get dirty. Girls should be inside – they should be playing, you know, house and doing those kinds of things, while boys should be outside getting dirty, playing with sticks and mud and that kind of thing.

    As we start thinking about outdoor skills, right, so learning about how to be in the outdoors and how to build fires and to hunt and fish and those kinds of skills, traditionally those are skills that are passed on from father to son. And so girls are often just left out of the mix in terms of how to even gain those skills.

    We’re seeing some of that changing. But the women now, what they came up through, very much were those more traditional male versus female skills within our society.

    WILLOW: And then there’s media representation — or lack thereof. Both Evans and Yu say that’s a big deal.

    CHRISTINE: Because, I mean, it’s cliché, but if you don’t see yourself in the sport, it’s harder to then do the sport.

    KATE: And a lot of times when we see people who are portrayed in the media, we see men who are sort of these rugged, muscular people that are mountain bikers or rock climbers. They’re sort of the ones that are doing the things in the pictures, right? And women, if portrayed at all, are the girlfriend or the cheerleader or the one that are sort of on the side watching.

    WILLOW: And even when women are portrayed doing a sport, it’s usually a very specific type of woman. White, cis, able-bodied.

    KATE: And so even the people that can see themselves in that space is a very sort of narrow kind of a person as well.

    WILLOW: All of this means that most women my age didn’t grow up mountain biking, or doing other similar sports. We didn’t learn the skills when we were little. Which means our male counterparts have a lifetime of experience, while we’re starting from scratch.

    And when you learn from scratch as an adult? That’s hard.

    KELLI TRUJILLO: I’m Kelli Trujillo.

    CAROLYNE WHELAN: My name is Carolyne Whelan. And I’m the Editor-in-Chief at Adventure Cyclist Magazine.

    KELLI: So the first time I was ever on a mountain bike was with a boyfriend who was an experienced mountain biker.

    WILLOW: This is very common. For a lot of women, their first experience in any given adventure sport is with a boyfriend. Typically, a boyfriend who’s been doing it for years. Which can be problematic.

    CAROLYNE: Even people who are supportive partners I don’t think are necessarily the best coaches. And so then you have, like, ugh, I really hate using these terms, because I hate this binary so much, but there’s like the girlfriend riders, where somebody buys their girlfriend a mountain bike…

    KELLI TRUJILLO: And so here I am on this new mountain bike that we had just bought me.

    CAROLYNE: And she goes on like a ride or two, she doesn’t immediately pick up this sport that he’s been playing for 20 years.

    KELLI: So there was lots of loose gravel, lots of roots, lots of rocks.

    CAROLYNE: And then he goes and takes off with his buddies that they’re on a group ride with.

    KELLI: And it seemed like he assumed that I should be knowing how to do this innately, which I just did not. And I really couldn’t ask how to do it, because he had taken off up ahead.

    CAROLYNE: And then the girls end up getting discouraged, taking it really personally.

    KELLI: It was frustrating, and it was demoralizing, and it was a, ‘I can’t do this.’ And so it soured the whole experience for me.

    CAROLYNE: That feeling of telling somebody to just do it, without any real explanation of how, is really anxiety producing. And then that’s going to create a lack of confidence and also some really mixed internal messages of: ‘I should be able to do this; I can’t do this; what is wrong with me that I can’t do this thing?’ And then being like, ‘You know what? I don’t want mountain biking to be the thing that ruins this six-year relationship. I’m just gonna back off, you can just do this thing, because I don’t want to be crying in the woods on a Saturday afternoon with you.’

    KELLI: I gave up altogether, and I didn’t have another bike, even around town, for it was probably another 15 years.

    JENN: A lot of times, folks don’t understand that beginners need some help. And it’s hard to just try it as an adult and get better.

    WILLOW: That’s Jenn Hess again, the founder of the Rowdy Gowdy camp.

    JENN: And so, I think as an adult, it really helps to break down the whole process and kind of take a step back and try to figure out a progression, step by step, to work on your skills.

    [Bike sounds, brakes squealing]

    COACH 1: Ok, so come through again, and let’s just do one more lap, and I want to see, first, take some time in that neutral position…

    WILLOW: Back at bike camp, participants have been broken into small groups. They’re riding over wooden ramps, and through orange cones, and there’s even a station where they’ve got their wheels up on a picnic table. It’s supposed to simulate a steep hill, and it helps you learn how to position your body properly.

    COACH 2: Now, are you in your ready position? You’ve got your level pedals. Um, hover your hands off of your handlebar, and just feel where your balance point is.

    CAMP PARTICIPANT: Oh my gosh. OK…

    OTHER VOICES: You got this! We got you. Nice! Yeah! Nice! Woo!

    WILLOW: It’s cold and raining, but spirits are high, and there is so much encouragement. Every little success is celebrated.

    COACHES: Nice! Beautiful, Riley. You got it. Nice! That looks great, that was smooth! Did that feel better. Yeah Christie. Good job, nice!

    WILLOW: It’s rare to be in an environment like this. A place where you’re learning without being under a microscope. A place where you can be honest about your fears and insecurities. A place where you can take risks, and make mistakes, and blunder your way through things — and everyone will support you one hundred percent.

    That’s not a luxury you get very often in regular life. And the upshot is kind of amazing.

    ALYSSA WECHSLER: You know, just in the span of a 20-minute session, you can see confidence being built.

    WILLOW: That’s Alyssa Wechsler. She’s one of the coaches.

    ALYSSA: The things that always stand out are people who, at the beginning, are so uncomfortable or don’t want to ride over any obstacle or any rock — have spent their lives, as soon as they get to an obstacle, just getting off the bike and walking. And to watch people — it doesn’t even take a whole weekend, it just takes a little bit of confidence boosting, and all of a sudden, they’re just riding things.

    Willow, I remember you very specifically being one of those people, actually. Like, am I wrong? ‘Cause I’m pretty sure I remember that. And then I remember watching you send it off of that rock drop on Stone Temple, and just like going for it. And I was like, “That is not the Willow I have ever ridden with before, and she smoked it!” [laughs]

    WILLOW: Yeah, that’s about right. [laughter]

    I remember that weekend at bike camp, back in 2017, so vividly. I showed up, and they had set up this obstacle course for us. Like, an actual obstacle course. There were these tight corners we had to navigate, and long, skinny platforms to ride over — almost like balance beams, for your bike. And there were even teeter totters. Seriously: teeter totters! I mean, who in their right mind, rides a bicycle over a teeter totter?

    It looked daunting.

    But then this amazing thing happened. They showed us how to do everything. They broke it all down into bite-sized pieces. And all of a sudden, I was pulling off moves that I never would have considered even attempting. I was jumping off the end of platforms. And riding down steep rocks. And doing bunny hops. And, yeah, it was still a little scary. But it was also exhilarating. Finally, the fun was overshadowing the fear.

    And the teeter totters? Turns out, those are the most fun of all.

    KELLI: There always in this stuff now for me is a little bit of the, “Oh yeah? Huh. Watch me! I can do this. I’m gonna do this.”

    WILLOW: That’s Kelli Trujillo again — the one who gave up on mountain biking after that demoralizing ride with a boyfriend.

    Years later, she finally gave it another try. Got a bike. Went to a clinic. And instantly, she felt herself blossoming.

    KELLI: We were riding on this stuff that was, I now know that these were intermediate trails there. So we went around this thing, and there was this big drop-off, and I was scared. I went sideways, and I — “Eek!” — I did like a little girl’s scream. But then we went through it. And like, “OK, well there we are, alright.” And it was just great. It felt like a milestone. It was a “I can do this. See, I can do this. I just need some instruction.”

    WILLOW: These days, Kelli gets out mountain biking multiple times a week. And this year, at age 56, she did her first race.

    A decade ago, when I’d go out mountain biking, most of the other people I encountered were guys. Now? There are so many women on the trails. And they’re riding really well.

    And yeah — skills clinics probably can’t take ALL the credit. Just like there are a lot of factors causing the gender gap, there are a lot of puzzle pieces contributing to progress. For example, these days, there’s more media representation of women in the outdoors. There’s more gear and clothing that fits our bodies. There are whole organizations dedicated to getting little girls into biking.

    But I do think there’s a fundamental truth that these women’s clinics are tapping into. They’re based on the premise that when it comes to social change, it’s not enough to just open the door.

    Yeah — it’s great to tell people of all genders they belong. It’s great to invite us to ride bikes and scale cliffs and surf waves. But we also need someone to show us the ropes. We need to learn the skills we never got as little kids. We need to be told, “You can do anything you want. AND HERE’S HOW.”

    If you enjoyed this story, please consider supporting Out There.

    We have an exciting year coming up, with lots of wonderful episodes in the works. But quality storytelling is expensive. We spend months producing each narrative, and we have a commitment to compensating our storytellers fairly. We also have to pay for music, and equipment, and IT, and lots of other things. It adds up.

    Lately, advertising revenue for independent podcasts has been dwindling. Which means your support matters more than ever.

    There are a number of easy ways to make a contribution. You can support us on Patreon, which is a crowd-funding platform. You can make a gift through PayPal or Venmo. Or you can even make a tax-deductible donation.

    Just go to outtherepodcast.com, and click support, to see all the options. Or use the link in the episode description. Again, that’s outtherepodcast.com/support.

    Thank you so much for being part of this endeavor with me.

    Coming up next time on Out There…

    MAYA KROTH: There’s a saying that how you spend new years is how you’re going to spend the rest of the year.

    WILLOW: Maya Kroth wanted to gain confidence. And she figured a good way to start was to take herself snowboarding on New Years Day.

    MAYA: Snowboarding would be a fake-it-til-you-make-it kind of challenge. If I could just act confident long enough to get me down the mountain, then I would develop actual confidence from having done the scary thing.

    WILLOW: But the outing didn’t go as planned. Tune in on January 4 for that story.

    Out There is a proud member of Hub & Spoke, a collective of idea-driven independent podcasts. One of the other shows in the collective that I think you might enjoy is called Subtitle. It’s a show about languages and the people who speak them.

    In the latest episode, we hear from a loving but confused family living in the UK — American mom, British dad, British-born daughter. They discuss simple words like “sure,” “reckon” and “middle class” — words that mean different things to each of them. There is no mother tongue in this family.

    You can find Subtitle wherever you get your podcasts, or at subtitlepod.com.

    Today’s story was reported, produced, and sound designed by me, Willow Belden. Story editing by Forrest Wood. And special thanks to Lori Mortimer for additional feedback.

    If you’d like to learn more about Rowdy Gowdy, I have a link at our website, outtherepodcast.com.

    Out There’s advertising manager is Jessica Heeg. Our audience growth director is Sheeba Joseph. Our interns are Katie Reuther and Maria Ordovas-Montanes. Our ambassadors are Tiffany Duong, Ashley White, and Stacia Bennet. And our theme music was written by Jared Arnold.

    Special thanks to everyone who’s supporting Out There with financial contributions, including Angie Chatman, Heather Kitching, Eric Biederman, Phil Timm, Doug Frick, Tara Joslin, Deb and Vince Garcia, and the family of Mike Ludders. We couldn’t do this without you.

    We’ll see you in the new year. And in the meantime, have a beautiful day, be bold, go outside, and find your dreams.

 

Credits

Story and sound design by Willow Belden

Story editing by Forrest Wood

Production feedback from Lori Mortimer

Music includes works from StoryBlocks and Blue Dot Sessions

Links

Rowdy Gowdy Women’s Mountain Bike Camp

Support Out There

Sign up for our email newsletter

Follow Out There on Facebook and Instagram

The Flood

What if we’re scared at the wrong moments?

Flooding in University City, Missouri in 2022 | PHoto courtesy Mary Ann Gaston

 
Before my eyes, across two different states, what was ‘safe’ and ‘not safe’ became hard to distinguish.
— Marina Henke
 

This is a story about fear.

It makes sense to be scared when we’re facing danger. But what happens when disasters occur in unexpected places?

In this episode, Marina Henke takes us from a desert in Utah to a suburb in Missouri and explores how a flood changed her attitude toward risk in the backcountry.

  • Welcome to Out There Podcast. Our stories are written for the ear, so for those able, we recommend listening while reading along. Transcripts may contain minor errors; please check the audio before quoting.

    VOICEOVER: Hub and Spoke audio collective.

    WILLOW BELDEN: Hi, I’m Willow Belden, and you’re listening to Out There, the podcast that explores big questions through intimate stories outdoors.

    Our next season is set to launch in the spring. But in the meantime, we’re going to be releasing several bonus episodes this fall and winter. This is the first of the bonus episodes. It’s a story about fear, and why we experience fear where we do.

    It goes without saying that the outdoors can be dangerous. There are wildfires. Floods. Injuries. But what happens when disaster occurs in an unexpected place? What does that do to our fear? And how does it shape our ability to find joy?

    Marina Henke has the story.

    MARINA HENKE: There's about to be a flood.

    I think about floods a lot. For a while, I was terrified of them. I imagined what they would look like, where they might be, what it would smell like. How there's nothing and then something, all at once.

    As a teenager, I spent most summers in the Southwest. That's where I learned about flash floods. This was red rock country, with slot canyons and narrow crevices. Even just 30 minutes of rain can turn a dry riverbed into just a really deathly current. Out West every year people die from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. You learned to read the skies. To not camp in certain areas. To always be wondering when and where water could fall.

    And then the summer would end. I'd come back home to the Midwest with its green trees and lazy creeks, parks with half a hill of trees that we'd call forests. In Missouri it actually rained all the time. Huge torrential downpours with thunder that would rattle our old kitchen windows. But you know when something’s so regular, you stop paying attention to it? In my mind, flash floods just didn’t happen in Missouri. I had no reason to be scared of them. That fear, it was tucked away until I went back to the desert. A place where things are dry until they are not.

    The desert was a place I fell in love with, also all at once. I was a kid, going to camp, seeing prairie dogs for the first time. Learning that ponderosa pines, they smelled sweet, like vanilla. I’d fall asleep to lightning storms and watch the sunrise every morning from a sleeping bag. And it’s not that I was never scared. Especially when it came to floods, we learned how dangerous they could be. But I think as a teenager, that risk was kind of thrilling. I kept coming back.

    Slowly, though, during that time, that fear of flash floods — really of risk in the backcountry — it grew.

    On this night, several years ago, I’m in Utah, the southeastern corner of it. The sun's just starting to set. The clouds are thick and full of moisture. It’s me and a group of girls. We’re on a backpacking trip. I’m just old enough to finally be in charge, even though man do I still feel young.

    And I am terrified it's going to flood. I came to the Southwest that summer armed with my usual hesitations. This wasn’t the land of Midwestern gentle downpours. But as we inched our way deeper into red rock country, that fear, its volume just turned way up.

    We finish setting up camp. It's on this shallow incline of a mile-wide canyon we're hiking along. And it's just about to rain. Technically, I know we're safe. I’d learned by now, how to pick a good spot. There's not any huge downpours in the forecast. But I can't eat all evening. I can barely put up with our campfire songs. We go to bed. And sure enough it starts to rain.

    MARY ANN GASTON: I'm Mary Ann Gaston. I'm 76 years old.

    MARINA: Mary Ann lives in Missouri. She speaks softly, but she's not shy. She was a nurse manager for years. She's exactly who I’d want on the other end of a phone call at the doctor’s. And in July of 2022, her house was about to flood.

    MARY ANN: I knew that they were saying we were going to have heavy rains and, you know, to expect flash flooding. And I thought, well, you know, I knew I'd had maybe four inches in the basement once before. And I thought, ‘I can do that.’

    MARINA: Mary Ann lives at the end of a curving street that's at the bottom of a hill. There's a stream that runs behind her row of ranch houses. You can't see it from her house at all.

    MARY ANN: I mean, I've known that it was there. When we have heavy rain, I can hear it. When we don't have heavy rain, I can smell it.

    MARINA: On this quiet street in Missouri, it started to rain.

    MARY ANN: So a little bit before 4 a.m. that Tuesday, July the 26th, I got a phone call from my neighbor who's next door. My son was here, and he has — he had — a Honda Ridgeline truck. And she said, “The water is getting up really high under Chad's truck. I can try and move it if you want me to.”

    And I said, “Well, he's home.” So I woke him up, and he went out the door, and, you know, there was no way to get down the steps. There's a little stone wall that is in the front of my house. And the water was high on the sidewalk, and he came back in, and he said, “I can't get to it.” And he went around to the basement door, and then he said, “Oh, mom, you won't believe the basement.”

    MARINA: Can I just say this is what terrifies me about floods. It's that refrain I heard again and again in the Southwest: There is nothing and then suddenly there is something. And that something is water. It’s so much of it. Enough to kill you. I know this is entirely not logical, but I always think that with fires, you can just put them out. They can disappear.

    Back in Utah I'm in my tent. It's hot. I'm trying to sleep. I can't. Because I am so convinced it is going to flood. Water is dripping onto our tent. I think maybe if I see it, I'll feel better. So I get up, and I open my rain fly, and I stand outside. I try to think of it like those soft rains I love in Missouri. But it doesn't work. I'm alone in the night under just a little moonlight. And all I can imagine is this basin we're in filling up with water like a big bathtub. I think of us sloshing around. Our tents floating to the top, our sleeping bags and pads a big sopping mess.

    MARY ANN: So I went down and I just got halfway down the stairs and I could see about a four and a half foot geyser shooting straight up out of the sewer drain. Just looked like Old Faithful, it was just like... And you could hear this rush. And I have this video of the water just bubbling up. So much water. I actually called 911 because I thought we were going to float away. And the lady said, “You know, we're trying to get people out of cars and people out of homes. Do you have a higher level?” And I said yes. And she said, “Go to your higher level.”

    MARINA: In Utah, there’s just a bit of moonlight peeking out from the clouds. It's damp, and it should be beautiful. I go back to bed. It keeps just raining so gently. But my heart is racing. I can't take a deep breath. I'm lying there thinking about all the water that's trickling down into the canyon that we're in.

    MARY ANN: We could see it now starting to seep under the front door and starting to seep under the sun porch door. And that's when we went upstairs. We retreated to bedrooms. And I had on the TV because I wanted to see what the weather was doing. And after about 10 minutes, of course, the router was under, underwater. So that all went out. And so I said to him, I said, “We need to pack because we're not going to be able to stay here.”

    MARINA: It gets light in Utah. I wake up, and everything's somehow fine. The kids break down camp. I keep looking up at the sky.

    MARY ANN: As it began to get light, it was just amazing. I mean, the house was totally surrounded by water. I looked out. We were, there's a dormer at the top of the stairs, and we were, had the window up and we were looking out. And I kept seeing something in the water, and it was moving. And I finally decided it was a person. He was swimming and he had a backpack he was pushing.

    So I called to him, and I said, “Do you need help?” And I said, “Are you okay?” And I said, “You can come in to my first floor.” But I said, “There's water and there's electrical, you know, things are plugged in and I don't want you to get shocked.”

    MARINA: We start to hike back to our cars. There’s just a light drizzle at this point. We cross a stream where the water looks like chocolate milk. It's up to our knees. In my head, I have a countdown. Three hours until we're safe. Two hours until we're safe. Please don’t flood. Please don’t flood.

    MARY ANN: I have photos around 6:30 where the water is receding in the first floor, and then by 11 o’clock we were outside. But at some point I measured the waterline on the garage, and it was four and a half feet. I mean, all of the contents in the house, in the living room, the couch, the chair, the bookcase where I had my grandson's toys and puzzles and books and craft items, and it had dumped over. And all of that was, you know, on the ground now, wet. If it had a motor or it wasn't wood, I lost it.

    MARINA: In Utah, we get to our vans. It didn't flood. We're loading up our gear, the kids are piling into the back seats. But I still hear myself snapping at everyone to go faster, to stop with the games. I'm still thinking: let's go, let's go, let's go.

    MARY ANN: So the whole neighborhood was, you know, people were just out like almost like a zombie apocalypse. It was a disaster zone, and you could barely thread through the street because of the dumpsters and the tow trucks. And then, then the belongings all started, you know, coming out. So, you know, the front yard was piled with everything that, you know, you, you had.

    MARINA: A flood did not happen that day in Utah. We'd come to a hillside on a canyon that had clumps of sagebrush and prickly pear cacti.

    MARY ANN: There was a fireplace screen in front of the fireplace. There was a nice tan-ish gold chair and a half over there in the corner, there was a little trunk.

    MARINA: And we'd left a hillside on a canyon that was unchanged. It had clumps of sagebrush and prickly pear cacti.

    MARY ANN: And as you can see, we're sitting here with an antique desk, there's a coffee table over there somewhere. And some lamps, but that's it. You know.

    MARINA: Sometimes I think we're scared in the wrong moments. I came back home to Missouri. There's no more red rock, just leafy green trees and heavy Midwestern rain I know to expect. This was years before Mary Ann’s house flooded. And, that summer in Utah had done something. I stopped camping after that. I’d dream about flash floods, worry endlessly about taking kids out into the desert. Missouri was safe, the desert was not. All those things I’d loved about the Southwest — they didn’t stack up to the way my mind, it would just scramble everytime I imagined another season out there.

    MARY ANN: Every time we've had rain since I'm over here, the morning after. And the first thing I do is, you know, I'm down to the basement to see, to see what happens.

    MARINA: Several years passed from that backpacking trip in Utah. I thought about floods less, but only because it had been so long since I’d spent time in the landscapes where I learned about them. Life was good, but sort of flat. I’d dream of red rock, sometimes obsessively look at photos on my phone from those years.

    And then, Mary Ann’s house flooded three blocks from my childhood home. I didn’t know it had happened, didn’t even know to be scared.

    In the days after, I drove around her block, looking at the piles of stuff, looking at the trails of mud. This wasn't red rocks or buttes or mesas, but this? This is what I'd always imagined. People walking around with glazed looks on their face. In shock.

    Some neighbors packed up their belongings. The flood had destroyed their home beyond repair, or maybe they just couldn’t imagine living on this street anymore.

    MARY ANN: It's really eerie to be here in the house now, because there's no one around, you know. It's eerily quiet. And I said to my son last week, “It just kind of feels like a ghost town.”

    MARINA: Insurance agents arrived, flood maps were redrawn.

    It wasn’t all at once, but I could feel something in me begin to crumble. What if bad things happen in beautiful places AND bad things happen on paved streets with ranch houses in the suburbs? It hadn’t flooded in Utah — hadn’t even come close. Before my eyes, across two different states, what was “safe” and “not safe” became really hard to distinguish.

    And somehow, it brought a relief that I did not expect. Mary Ann had woken up and her house had filled with water. It could happen here, it could happen there. I began to feel restless, like I’d been living in this flatter world for no good reason.

    Not long after Mary Ann’s flood, I returned to the desert. I’d forgotten the dryness of the air — the way that the dust can feel soft on your skin. I felt like I was a kid again, like I was falling in love with the desert all over again. But it was a more mature love. I was tentative, I looked at the skies, I felt a fear of what I knew could be true.

    One afternoon white clouds began to stack on top of each other. I knew the desert — knew that they would darken until they turned black, until it rained. It poured for an hour, left huge puddles on the dirt roads.

    That night, I stayed awake in my tent for a long time. I stepped outside, under the moonlight. I thought of floods, and risk, and fast moving water. All those things still existed in the desert I was in. But they existed in Missouri too, with its gentle hills and green trees. There was beauty here and -— yes, there was still fear. But for the first time in a long time, I could hold them both at once.

    WILLOW: That was Marina Henke. She lives in Brooklyn, New York where she works as a podcast producer. You can find her on Instagram @marinaclairehenke or at her website, marinachenke.com.

    As for Mary Ann, she’s back in her house again. It took nearly six months to finish all the repairs.

    If you enjoyed this episode, please share the link with a friend. We’re always eager for new listeners, and your recommendation is our best form of advertising.

    Coming up next time on Out There…

    JENN HESS: I was the only girl at this race. It was outside of Minneapolis, Minnesota in like 91, 92. And I was the only girl, and I was very shy at the time. And boys made fun of me ‘cause I had a pink bike. I was the only girl. And I got so like frightened that I just went home. I didn’t even ride, didn’t do the race, didn’t do anything. And from then on, I walked away from bikes.

    WILLOW: Tune in on November 30 for a story about the gender gap in mountain biking. We’ll explore why certain sports are still SO male dominated, and we’ll visit a mountain bike clinic in Wyoming that’s trying to change the status quo.

    MOUNTAIN BIKER: Oh my gosh, OK.

    OTHER MOUNTAIN BIKERS AND COACHES: You got it! You got it, you got it. Yeah Christie! Nice! [laughter]

    WILLOW: Out There is a proud member of Hub & Spoke, a collective of idea-driven independent podcasts. One of the other shows in the collective that I think you’ll enjoy is called Mementos. It’s about the objects we keep, and the stories behind those objects.

    I was actually just listening to one of their episodes last night. It’s from a couple of years ago, and it is just delightful. It’s about this guy from Wisconsin, who ends up taking in a little parrot named Cricket. And it’s just a wonderful story. It’s the kind of episode that just has you smiling to yourself the whole time you’re listening.

    You can find Mementos wherever you get your podcasts, or at mementospodcast.com.

    Today’s story was written, produced and sound designed by Marina Henke. Story editing by me, Willow Belden.

    Out There’s advertising manager is Jessica Heeg. Our audience growth director is Sheeba Joseph. Our interns are Katie Reuther and Maria Ordovas-Montanes. Our ambassadors are Tiffany Duong, Ashley White, and Stacia Bennet. And our theme music was written by Jared Arnold.

    Special thanks to everyone who is supporting Out There with financial contributions, including Mary Seim, Eric Biederman, Phil Timm, Doug Frick, Tara Joslin, and Deb and Vince Garcia. If you’d like to make a financial contribution of your own, just go to patreon.com/outtherepodcast or click the link in the episode description.

    That’s it for this episode. Have a beautiful day, be bold, go outside, and find your dreams.

Credits

Story and sound design by Marina Henke

Story editing by Willow Belden

Music includes works from Blue Dot Sessions

Links

Sign up for our email newsletter

Support Out There on Patreon

Follow us on Facebook and Instagram